Information – from a mathematical perspective


Kiran : I am happy that Lucian Imiones has taken interest in our topic he is Associate Professor, Illinois State University

LUCIAN :  We both have similar “big pictures” regarding the Worlds, Inner and Outer, and recognize the primary role of information and structure for the complex systems whose well-being are our main concern.
That matter moves from here to there (Galileo, Newton and Einstein) it’s a start, which unfortunately made “us” too proud of our control on “matter”, forgetting the Greek philosophy “Know thyself”, and philosophy altogether …

KIRAN : Yes Einstein put really turned our believe in energy into a religion, on the cover page of the San Francisco chronicle last week I saw that if people been asked for the name of a scientist 43 % would say “Einstein”, 25% did not know any name of any scientist and the other 32 % named one of a dozen others. Einstein has certainly the rank of a “high priest”.

The left brain way of jokes

The left brain way of jokes

LUCIAN : Back to the point: a few years ago (2005) I realized that there is an obvious missing fundamental principle, stating the equivalence of matter-energy ( ala Einstein) and information; moreover general relativity includes space-time in
the LHS of the balance equation (which is a shadow of the corresponding conceptual duality between External and InternaLucian Energy-matter-space-time and Information-Structure (Info. as in Entropy is a measure of Symmetry which is Structure); see my article, if you have time:
The Search for a New Equivalence Principle.

KIRAN : Yes, this so important, as Einstein did not at all have “Information” in any of his equation nor did any one before him. It just did not show as a factor although we know that it moves our world more than anything and is the factor that moves energy. The famous equation E=mc2 has to be complemented by an equation between Information and Energy.

What we do not realize it that matter is only transformed in very rare (at least in our environment) nuclear reaction into energy or out of  matter. Transformation of Information into Energy however is an almost moment to moment experience for each of us and it does not need atomic reactors.

LUCIAN : Now this is what I see in “Inergetix” starting from the name: the distinction between Energy (and all that) and Information, with the possibility to transform one into another (as in any true equivalence, like E=mc2).

KIRAN : To make a new formula I=Ec2 as popular as that of Einstein it needs just a few examples where we can measure a direct transformation of Information into Energy. And of course it needs a scientist to promote this new formula just as charismatic as Einstein.

LUCIAN : I distinguish three main levels of discussion: Philosophical, Science/Physics and Mathematical implementation, which is the most uninteresting, since, if one knows the language well, all that’s left is to have what to say, right? So equations don’t impress me, except as concise labels ideas.

KIRAN : Formula and equations are most impressive for the left brain as it gives the appearance of complete knowledge. However closed equations are in fact incapable to even describe how a universe would move and interact if it only  consisted of 3 planets (the famous 3 body problem) now consider how much less equations are capable to describe anything of a universe that consist not of 3 but of trillions of bodies. Remember Einstein did not come up with his famous formula E=mc2 by measuring anything but only through Thought-experiments at his desk and as far as I know nobody had ever actually measured the correctness of E=mc2 in detail.

The most important principle of the new science of Information is KISS  --Keep It Super Simple --

The most important principle of the new science of Information is KISS --Keep It Super Simple --

LUCIAN : Now starting from the above idea/principle, I realized that in fact EVERYTHING IS INFORMATION, the tipping point of starting the Digital World Theory. The Building blocks of fermionic mater as well as bosonic fields ARE the QUBITS, i.e. the units of quantum information (a.k.a. spinors, or just plainly Yes and NO , at the same time, with various “colors” as weights: complex numbers; so reality as any sane person knows, is not black xor white, and tertium datur all-the-time … duality THE fundamental principle in science as in religion,
oriental philosophy etc.).

KIRAN : We have to first realize that with respect to Information we are all beginners just as people only 200 years ago in respect to energy.  I envision the first “scientific” experiments that will be done are such in which information is connected to plants and it will be seen what retards or invigorates their growth. All of you know the experiments of sonic-bloom and others that just radiated fields with music and thus increased the yield but here as usual one would only follow that energy (sound) is the key. How about surrounding sprouts with beautiful pictures and see what this will do to their growth (of course each gardener knows that the beauty of his garden has an effect on its yield) also many people know that growing flowers next to edible plants increases the yield as well. We just need one study to show that Information like pictures or flowers increases the yield of sprouts for example under otherwise precisely equal conditions and you will be the originator of the new equation I=E*k (k a constant that has to be determined) and of course you will be as popular as Einstein, provided you have a tongue as beautiful as him.

LUCIAN : So, my “big picture” is based on the IE-duality: classical information as the Dynamical External Network of Quantum Gates modeling what we think as “independent and localized objects”, replacing the aberrant concept of continuum space-time, which processes Quantum Information as the qubit flow
(mater and interactions). The main point is that the duality enables the conversion of QI (as internal degrees of freedom, from quantum registers) into external structure, and conversely.

Without having the details yet, I feel that this line of designing the theory is flexible enough to provide the basic language Q++ of Reality Design (Engineering reality, not just modeling it).
From the language to a full Operating System is a long way: here comes “Structure” into the picture; layers on top of other layers etc. and any Operating System has a CORE (kernel) which are usually inaccessible by IO-devices, as these are supposed to use drivers to communicate with the Kernel
(General Operational Dynamics )

KIRAN : Besides experiments with plants I think that computers are of course the best and so far completely unrecognized experimental ground to show a direct transformation of Information into Energy. We all know thousands of examples where computers steel our energy particularly if the interface of a program (which is information) is not adapted to the user. And in all factories around the world computers control the processes and depending how well the program (information) is written save more or less energy. But the direct conversion of energy into Information has never been studied to my knowledge. How for example to investigate it the battery of a computer lasts longer if one does wild-divine animations rather than war-games. Experiments like this have never been attempted  although we can observe every day that what information we deal with either gives us energy or burns it.

LUCIAN : I’ll stop with my “picture”, and get back on your question – but one more thing: the best architecture of a computer, classic or quantum, implements the so called Dynamical Programming, where the hardware reconfigures itself in response (adaptive/resonance) to the request / specific software which needs to run on it. This “resonates” with both DLE and The Secret (“Your wish is my command” etc.).

KIRAN : I know the computer of the future will not work with YES/NO logic but with what is already now been worked with on experimental basis with so called FUZY-logic a logic that also allows for at least one or better several states in-betweens YES and NO. And again what do we have then ? Yes again it is a DLE state and that is the state that all semiconductors are based on anyway as they are not YES-NO-conductors but they are in a dynamically labile state that conducts/emits/decays energy based on other parameters that can never be predicted for the individual atom but only statistically for collectives of large number.

LUCIAN : The point is, how to move past speculations and theories? I am not patient enough to build the theory first! It’s enough if we have the main ideas and principles …
So, I am working on the math-phys foundations in parallel with my math academic research, but it will take some more time till the implementation will be ready. The key points:
1) PlanKiran : E=hf (energy <-> frequency), de Broglie: p=h k (momentum <-> wave length and direction); but this is mechanics – dead, as you say;
2) Lucian: Entropy = – k ln |Aut(System)|, generalizing the
Boltzmann-Shannon formula beyond thermodynamics, where Aut(System) means the automorphisms of the system, i.e. transformations preserving and thus defining the Structure!

KIRAN : This is the way we have to see how the concepts of matter and energy can be applied to Information. Entropy is just one, and how about the Inertia, Impulse, Density, Color, Transparence, Purity, Gravity, Mass, Volume a.s.o. because certainly we can also adapt these concepts rigidly (scientifically) to information as we do this already literally all the time when we talk about information in all its different forms.

Especially CHAOS/Entropy needs a science to be understood - CoRe is the first step in this direction 300w" sizes="(max-width: 787px) 100vw, 787px" />

Especially CHAOS/Entropy needs a science to be understood - CoRe is the first step in this direction

LUCIAN : Where can I find more info on the CoRe the device with the random generator (I didn’t look at the site yet)?
The idea, as I see it, is that our conscience is classical, our subconscious is quantum and entangled with many other we’ve met or will met (BTW I KNOW there time is NOT a physical dimension: see my article “On the Arrow of Time”,
– I’ll explain another time if you are interested how entanglement works), and the subconscious can easily “read” the “us”, the conscious, but not the other way around, so we should build some “resonators” capable of non-demolishing quantum measurements … Now could CoRe
work as such a quantum output device? … just a thought …

KIRAN : Its very simple, our left brain works in the classical way where everything is connected only with one or few other things, the concepts that we associate with each other by being reasonable.  The right brain associates a much larger  number of ideas/concepts/things with each other maybe even an infinite number. This  is the “entangled” mode of “reasoning” and we usually call this creative/intuitive/network thinking. In children the right brain is still very much more alive and active then in adults as they have been brainwashed by our current left brain culture. The rise of autism is only the tip of the ice berg of this left brain culture as autistic children have almost lost the use of the right brain. They can learn languages much earlier as other, are exceedingly good in RIGHT spelling, are capable of keeping organizing even the most simple things for hours, like EXACTLY stacking up boxes BUT they are incapable of associating which is the ability of the right brain…. More about this in a separate post about AUTISM one of the many new 100 % informational diseases that are spreading because we don’t know how to deal with this onslaught of information and because we do not recognize the resulting diseases for what they are “informational diseases”.

Kind regards,

Associate Professor, Illinois State University <>


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